Welcome one and all to the Timmy "Two Guns" SOPRANO Fan Blog
If you are a huge fan of the Sopranos like I am, this is your blog. I intend to create discussions in this blog with the ultimate goal of bringing my beloved characters back to the studio for more seasons, if not a SOPRANO MOVIE. Worst case scenario, we will all just be commenting about our favorite show, which I certainly think is a worthwhile thing. Think of this as a "petition" of sorts to the cast and crew. I, like millions of other red-blooded mob-related movie junkies, became addicted to the Sopranos in the very first season as many of you did, and found myself enthralled in the character development of the cast throughout its entire run. Flawless writing, cast choices, cinematography make this show the ICON it has become. Does anyone else have all 7 seasons on DVD, start from the beginning episode and in your spare time, watch ALL the episodes then restart from the beginning? People are always asking me, "dude, do you ever watch anything else?" My answer is a resounding NO. If I do, it is by accident, or simply for noise value, like being forced to watch something like "Desperate Housewives" because you only have one good TV in the house. At any rate, welcome to my blog. Let's all make a splash with this thing. Please make a post, and enjoy your time here in Sopranoland.
Hi Timmy ,Dermo here. At last, somebody who is as much a fan of "our thing " as I am. Even though the sho finished nearly three years ago now I still obsess over it, although I don't like that word. Nobody says people " are obsessed " with Shakespeare do they ? No, of course they don't. It's art of the highest order and deserves to be treated as such.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you have got this but I grew sick and tired of people proclaiming " The Wire " as the greatest ever show. I got so sick of it I finally watched the whole thing on dvd and while it is very good, it is nowhere near the achievements of " The Sopranos". It's an excellent cop show and a critique of the workings of a modern city. But that's all. Our thing has multi levels to it. Cultural, artistic, psychoanalytical, political etc etc, not to mention at times outright hilarious. But I don't need to sell the show to you.
I was whacked from what I consider to be the best Sopranos web-site, unfortunately for arguing my case to aggressively. Which is what a forum is about I thought. But anyway, great to find another " obsessive ".
Unfortunately, I can't agree with you on any movie because for me this would be the ultimate betrayal of the original show. In which I firmly believe Tony died. In Holsten's.Never heard it when it happened. Hope this doesn't get the blog of to a difficult start. Cheers,Dermo.
It certainly helps the blog get of to an AWESOME start. Thank you for your insight, Dermo. To the end of the Sopranos in Holsten's: I think Chase left it open. He made us believe there was a "boogie man" waiting in the wings to wack Tony, and my heart skipped beats waiting for that to happen. But there is NOTHING that can lead us to believe that, except our own imagination. What if they were just going to have a nice friendly family conversation and the few "undesireables" in the bar were just randomly placed to give us suspension of disbelief, and not cartoon hitmen working for the New York crew? What if the idiotic park job ensuing in front of the restaurant by Meadow was just that, an idiotic parking catastrophe? At any rate, I refuse to believe it is OVER OVER. Sorry it took so long for me to respond, and thanks for your insightful comments once again. And OH -- by the way, I like how you refer to the Sopranos as "Our Thing" ...!! Salute, Two Guns Timmy
ReplyDeleteHi Tim, glad to hear back from you.Hopefully we can get a few more obsessives on here and keep " our thing " alive.
ReplyDeleteWithout getting bogged down on this Tim, the final ten seconds of on-screen black and deathly silence is NOT my imagination. It's there. In fact Chase wanted THIRTY SECONDS of black. If, as you say, nothing happened what's that all about ? Why don't we see them sit down and have their meal and then cut straight to credits ? No, the black screen is where we ( Tony ) should be seeing Meadow come through the door.But we see nothing. Hear nothing. Bobby said " you probably never hear it when it happens right " ? And he didn't. Also Tim, in my opinion it's a beautiful irony by Chase that Tony gets whacked in the same manner as his favourite scene from the Godfather.
But back to the movie. Chase has said the only way for it to work would be to do a " day we didn't see " during the series. In other words a kind of prequel in the sense it would be before the series's end but not before it started. If you get my drift. The problem he said is that Jamie Lyn and Robert are too old now to play themselves six or seven years ago. Why would they have to be in it ? I mean AJ and Meadow weren't in every episode were they ? He could have them speaking on the phone maybe just to include the characters somehow. It could be done I think.
To finish, " our thing " is never over, it exists in it's entirety on dvd to cherish forever. Each rewatch reveals something new every time.Cheers.
So, Dermo, you DO agree that it IS a doable thing, meaning another series or even a movie that is a "prequel" of sorts that could fall ANY TIME during the series that fits to help us explain the ending. This "prequel" could be an even deeper prophecy for things to come at the series end that you and I have grown to know and love, an even greater "arc" if you will to Tony's character. I hear you with the silence at the end: creates a moment where we have to place what we know about Tony and "our thing" into the "black space" in Chase's ending. You are right about the DVD series being a cherished ownership. I also gain new insight every time I recycle this series from the beginning, however my twist on this thing STILL sits with no whacking whatsoever being done at the restaurant, mainly because I am an emperical evidence type of guy and look to science to solve all problems. I don't have enough evidence to support such a theory, so maybe you could help enlighten me. Hope all is well for you today. Salute, Timmy "Two Guns"
ReplyDeleteYour craving for " evidence " Timmy is precisely the sticking point. By that I mean there is no " smoking gun", pun very much intended.The " evidence " is in the subtext of the piece as a whole, from the very start to the finish.
ReplyDeleteChase is on record as despising network TV and it's lazy, cliched output. He wanted to do something different, to ENGAGE the viewer.He said he didn't want an ending where the bad guy gets it in the end, a " crime doens't pay" Scarface type ending. But equally he didn't want a crime pays ending either. His solution ? Tony dies but the viewer doens't see it, doesn't get to cheer as he is blasted in front of his family. The " evidence " for this idea is in the TWICE being told by Bobby that " you probably never even hear it when it happens right " ? And Tony didn't hear it. Neither did we. At the precise moment when we are about to see Meadow come throught the door everything cuts out. Because he's gone. That's why there is no music Tim. If, according to you, nothing happens then why no music ? In the Sopranos, " Members Only " is shorthad for scumbag, for mob guy. Ritchie, Feech la Mana, uncle Jun plotting to whack T. with Livia, Eugene Pontecorvo and one of the guys who shoot Sil have all worn Members Only jackets. Not to mention the " Man in Members Only jacket" in Holsten's.Why have him in any jacket at all? No, the jacket is to tell us he's a hit man and there to harm Tony. It's subtle, yes and might not stand up in a court of law Tim but that's the way Chase CONVEYS to us what happens. Tony dies not beacause he's a bad man but as a natural consequence of the life he leads. I see the Members Only guy as an echo of Eugene, coming back to haunt Tony like bad karma for all the lives he has ruined. Don't forget Eugene, in his eponymous jacket walks into a diner and shoots a guy. Watch it with the final scene in Holsten's in mind and it screams out at you that this is what happens to TOny. But we don't see it. Because he didn't.
By ending the show with a shot from Tony's point of view Chase breaks all conventional " rules" and this is what people find so difficult to deal with. It's genius. We all grew up watching tv and movies are conditioned to see things in a certain way. The ending subverts all our normal perspectives on things and that's why it is so jarring.
Jeez, went on a bit there. But yes, I think a movie set somewhere before the finale could easily be done, no problem.
Dermo,
ReplyDeleteInteresting insight. Sorry for how long it has been since my last post. I love talking about the last episode and all, but there are many points to draw from the remainder of episodes as well. Fallone, Bevilaqua, Pussy(not that pussy the other one). All the beefs and drama throughout the have created an immense amount of discussion worthy of beating to death, so to speak. The scene in the restaurant of the first season where Junior said "Next time you come in heavy, or don't come in at all" for example. Let me know how deep you want to dive into this, Mr. Walnuts.
You touched on something there Tim I have a query about. It concerns " little " Pussy Malange.In an attempt to avert the hit by Junior in Vesuvio's Tony has it burned down.Fair enough but here's my question. What happens the hit after that ? Do they whack little Pussy elsewhere or what ? Do we ever hear about it again or is not relevent anymore ? I can't quite remember.
ReplyDeleteOf course we DO hear about him again- when Jun finally loses his marbles and shoots Tony in " Members only ". Jun is convinced Melange has conned him out of his share of a deal, 40 grand maybe and mistakes Tony for him.It's a long shot I know but I find it interesting that the first beef between Tony and Jun is about Jun's proposed hit on Pussy Melange and the FINAL " beef" is when Jun mistakes Tony for Pussy and HE gets shot ! It's like Tony and Jun have come full circle and " this is where we came in "! No big deal I suppose but I like all the fore-shadowing and echoing going on in the show.
Again, brilliant writing by Chase. Amazing what happens when we LET WRITERS WRITE. Thank goodness for HBO and thier ability to do just that. Chase's foresight as a writer makes it look so easy to us out here in Sopranoland. He thought 20 chess moves down the road and put it all together like a pro. Melange is a prime example of that. I was looking for this same type of thing when Livia was wandering through Tony's neighborhood looking for Cetevia, which also came from and went nowhere in Sopranoland. Chase uses this to bring relevance back to the story, much like comedians use a funny quip about a past joke to bring something in the present joke alive. To that end, I was also searching for the completion with Chrissy and Paulie's Russian in the woods. HALT. That could be the ARC in our take off story, now that I think of it...... Rebuttal??
ReplyDeleteI recently bought my brother in law the box -set and he's hooked. He pointed out something I had missed. After Chris hits Valery in the head and they run up to find him gone, there is an over-head shot of the two of them, FROM VALERY'S POINT OF VIEW. The clear inference is that he has shinned up a tree but the city boys don't think to look up.The movie could open with the Russian hiding in the tree and Chris and Paulie searching down below. Add this to the fact that Paulie's car is gone when they get out of the woods and there is no doubt Valery made it out of the there alive.Why we never hear from him again ? Who knows, with half his head hanging off he could have crashed the car a mile down the road or lost his memory of the whole incident which would explain why Slava doesn't come gunning for Tony's crew.It would just be a starting point but would also clearly show where the movie is set, i.e. long before the point where the TV series ended.
ReplyDeleteAn alternate universe to what we all know and love about Sopranoland. Absolutley brilliant. I felt Valery would resurface for that reason alone -- the "tree view" installed so effectively by Chase at just the right moment. I was let down a little by that, but this segway is a terrific fix for that let down. We may have something here my friend.
ReplyDeleteAnother possible narrative I have toyed with is that of Furio's story. What happens to him when he returned to Italy etc. What if he didn't give up on Carmela ? What if we see him with a certain hitman whom we follow from Naples all the way to Holsten's ? This story-line could run in tandem with what's going on in world Soprano, kind of like Godfather 11, two films in one.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I realise Tim the above scenario involves a direction you don't subscribe to but nevertheless I like the " twin track " idea of it. That we would be seeing events unfold from a completely different perspective to what have seen already.
ReplyDeleteWithout labouring the point,although I suppose I am, as a fellow Sopranos nut I feel I have to point out a few things you may have missed. The scene in the final episode where Tony visits Sil in hospital has an ad playing on the TV which goes like this;
" The magic bullet is a versatile counter-top magician that does any job in ten seconds or less ". The magic bullet is a reference to the Kennedy assassination ( headshot, from behind and to the right ), the shady guy in Holsten's sits at the counter and the black screen runs for ten seconds!!
The episode titled " Kennedy and Heidi " is a direct reference to the ending.The Kennedy part is obvious. The " Heidi " part refers to an infamous game between the Raiders and the Jets in 1969 I believe. The game ran a few minutes over time and the live feed cut out to show the pre-scheduled film " Heidi ". Viewers were understandable outraged, finding out later that one side had come from behind to finally win. This is known as the " Heidi-bowl " game I believe. This is precisely how our thing ended.
These details are not coincidence Tim. It is how Chase CONVEYS to us what happened.As a fellow enthusiast I feel duty bound to at least point out these " clues ". It is of course entirely up to you to make of it what you will.
Just to go back to the movie narrative, what if Carmela had stayed in contact with Furio and is in fact in on the hit on Tony ? Don't forget she tells him " the consensus is Holsten's " and could tip off Furio. With Chris, Bobby and Sil all out of action Carm and Fur might see this as their moment.I don't of course believe any of this is the case but I think it's at least a workable scenario for a potential movie.
Here it is July 2nd, and I haven't been on even my OWN blog for over a month. Time to fire it up Dermo, and get some stuff going here. Bring your friends. Sorry it has been so long: Lots of life happening here. Back now for the long haul.
ReplyDeleteJust back to work today myself, don't have a pc at home.Nothing major but something has been eating me since I finally spotted it.
ReplyDeleteThe episode " Provai Livushka " in series 3, where Livia dies, has a couple of curios I'd be intereted in your thoughts. Tony is seen opening a closet and in the mirror reflected behind him, we see Pussy standing there. He has of course been dead since the end of 2. Blink and you'll miss it.Is it his ghost ? Tony's unconscious mind ? Guilt brought on by the funeral of his mother or what ?
Also, when Janice is trying to get people to speak a few words about Livia Tony says " Wrap it up Janice ", clearly behind his left shoulder is someone coming down the stairs, sees what's going on and then turns back up the stairs out of shot. Somebody says this is an extra who wandered into shot but I don't know, I can't believe an error like that would go unnoticed ? Any ideas ? Pussy reflected in the mirror is clearly deliberate and therefore the more important.
I remember the stairs and did not make that specific connection during the many times I have seen that episode, but your comments struck a chord: looking back I recall thinking something was up with that too, but wasn't sure what it might have been other than a guest. There is seemingly no regular cast in that room unaccounted for, so who COULD it have been? And, the Pussy reflection in the mirror clearly was deliberate as a "reflection" of Tony's concious thoughts about murdering his best friend to relieve the leaking witness, possibly connecting with the relief of his mother's passing. I haven't seen the episode in a few months, but that was probably the 7th time seeing it, and every time I capture new messages from Chase.
ReplyDeleteYeah, agree with you on the reflection of Pussy in the mirror. I'm currently watching series 3 and Tony openly admits to Paulie and the others that he sometimes thinks of the " fat fuck ". They remember how Pussy used to do Santa claus for the neighbourhood kids and Tony realises Pussy was wired up under his suit in '95 and that they should have spotted it there and then.Tony is out by the ocean and reminisces about Pussy saying how he would love to live by the ocean... " in the next life maybe " he says. We know now of course that he is in the next life...at the bottom of the ocean!! I also forgot the brilliant " it was you Fredo " by Sil to Pussy, unknowingly doing his Al impersonation. Brilliant writing.
ReplyDeleteAbout the mysterious figure in the background behind Tony at Livia's " funeral " there are a few theories out there. Some say he is the waiter who's button is a camera for the Feds at the official making of Junior as boss. We see this guy again I think in the dream sequence in " The test dream ". If indeed it is the same actor, and I think it may well be, it could be Chase saying that Tony is being watched or listened to all the time, blissfully unaware of it. Or that WE ALL are under surveillence by the powers that be these days. Big Brother is watching kinda thing. A cast list of the two episodes ( "The test dream" and I can't think of the one where Jun is made boss )might confirm who the actor is.
I have loaned 1-3 out to relatives, but do not remember actually SEEING anyone in the step scene. I remember it being someone "lurking" if you will. Hell, for all we know, it was Harris or one of his FBI croanies, or a button for New York, spying on the family for Johnny Sack. Truth of the matter is, Chase specifically put it there to test us, the viewers, on our keen sense of Soprano prowess, even letting us decide. This is one of our pivotal moments when I say EMPERICAL EVIDENCE is my modus operandi. The State of Missouri says they are the "Show Me State" and I am forever adopting that phrase, even though I have only been there a few times. Theories are great, and your proofs in the past have been intriguing. I will also say that Chase does EVERYTHING for a reason. So let's just say that the ultimate reality is this: This is the mark of an incredibly brilliant writer.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, absolutely. Everything is in there for a reason. There are no coincidences.
ReplyDeleteOn a completely different note could I ask your opinion on something that I remembered from late season 3. It's a very small matter but kinda intrigues me. After Jackie Jr. has botched the hold up of Ralphie's card game and Furio gets shot, he rings Tony trying to reach out for help. He points out to Tony that he and the guys did the same thing years ago with Feech la Mana's game and they got a pass, going on in fact to be made guys. Tony retorts something like..." oh yeah ? Well see if you can work out the difference ". Now maybe I am as thick as Jackie but what is the difference ? It's probably so obvious I can't see it...but I just can't! Is it maybe that when T. and the guys held up Feech's game Johnny Boy was still alive and could weigh in for Tony whereas now Jackie's dad isn't around so he's a nobody and has to pay the price ? Sometimes you can be too close to something and miss the obvious.
I love Junior's lines to Tony at the service for Jackie Jr. He remarks that Jackie was always a bit thick even as a kid..." didn't he almost drown in three inches of water "? This immediately brings to mind Carmela's story about just the same thing in " Soprano home movies " when they are at Bobby and Janice's lake house.But more importantly it brings to mind AJ, none too bright himself, almost drowning in the swimming pool.But he then says something I always find touching.He remarks on how small a crowd is there and how in so and so's day at a funeral " for the death of a kid ", there would have been lines a mile long, or something to that effect.Despite being a self-centred selfish pr**k at times, Junior can show real concern for people, especially older people and those who are sick.And the way he tried to get Tony to make up with Livia even though he knew full well she knew what she was doing in trying to get Tony whacked.
The point about kids drowning in pools of water is probably a reach on my part.The last episode of series 3 and AJ's attempted suicide are miles apart and I doubt Chase had planned that far ahead. But it is possible that during the course of the show he remembered things from earlier and then put echoes of them in the later episodes.
I am pretty sure the difference is that Tony did not kill anyone in his robbery. The Jackie Jr botched robbery included Furio taking it in the leg and being fixed by the "Prick Doctor" that in fact was a "Prick Doctor" which I pissed myself over, AND the little thing about a guy a the card table getting blown away by a shotgun blast. I also think your comment about kids drowning in pools of water may be a stretch, but it does help bring an important point out of Chase's writing of Junior's character: He does not care about these individuals other than for his own gain whether it be monetary or EGO driven. Hesh said in one episode that "Junior is driven En Toto by his own ego" and I think this is the ONLY way he could have been written into the show to create the interest arc as vividly as Chase did, and could not be any closer to the real truth about Junior's character.
ReplyDeleteAh, of course, yes. Furio, a made guy, gets shot in the course of the stick up. That seals Jackie's fate there and then, as Christopher points out.
ReplyDeleteIt's an interesting point you make about Junior. I would say one of the driving forces behind his whole character is the sense of bitterness at being " passed over ", by his younger brother no less, in not being made boss.And then to be secretly undermined by Tony and his captains must have been the last straw. Shades of Fredo in G.1 I think, " I was passed over Mike , by my kid brother"!
Your point about his ego is probably best illustrated by the way he wanted to know if Bobby's father had died of cancer or during the killing of Mustang Sally."These things come in threes" and he felt he might survive his own cancer if Bobby's dad " took his place ".
It's not a major deal but I think there is definitely something in the kids drowning theme. At the lake house in 6.b.1, Carmela tells of how the doctor of a neighbour of theirs had a pool party and a child was found face down in the water. Tony says " I don't know why but I can't get that story out of my head ". I can only assume this is an unconscious memory of Jackie Jr. and a forshadowing of what is to come with his OWN son in a swimming pool.
Oh and BTW, the guy who got shot at Ralphie's card game was also at the Executive game in series two so he is at least some sort of associate and not just a civilian. This, combined more importantly with Furio taking a stray one, meant the end of Jackie.What a hit as well, by Vito. Jackie, literally, never saw it coming, didn't hear a thing, as they say in " Goodfellas ".
Where is everybody?
ReplyDeleteI think they're in the Bermuda Triangle. Or maybe they died with Tony. Nobody seems to be interested anyway Tim.I'm sure you're aware of the upcoming show " Boardwalk empire " from HBO by Terence Winter, one of the main writers on The Sopranos. Scorcese has directed the pilot. Steve Buscemi is a central character and other actors from the Sopranos are in it.Maybe it might revive a bit of buzz around our thing and get some more posters on here and really get it going.
ReplyDeleteDermo,
ReplyDeleteThought you skipped town. Yes, I cannot wait to see the new Terence Winter thing. Knowing the lineup, I am interested in seeing how much range it adds to the Soprano cast members careers. Pumped actually. Keep this thing alive, Dermo.
I think I'm right in saying Tim that Boardwalk.. started on Sunday last in the States ? We won't get it over here for a while yet, soon hopefully. Did you watch the pilot ? Did it live up to our expectations ? Really hope so, it sounds right up my street. I believe the actor who played Bennie Fazio and the guy who played Butchie from NY are in it as well.
ReplyDeleteMostly Steve Buschemi is all I can tell so far. The show is pretty good, but "our thing" is better. Buschemi likes to say "fuck" a LOT. It's like he is a kid who just learned a new word. The story line moves along really well, and I can see how you could become addicted to the characters, but the over all REASON for the show is kind of elusive. Pretty much, the arc of the show seems to be that smuggling alcohol in prohibition is an illegal thing worthy of telling a mob story about. I am not hooked yet, but the possibility of that happening is definitely there. Frankly, I get more out of "House" right now than "Boardwalk Empire" and hope next week changes that for me. Incidentally, where are you located?
ReplyDeleteI am in Dublin, Ireland, Tim. So we don't usually get to see HBO stuff 'til weeks, sometimes months even, after they have aired in the States. Normally this doesn't bother me in the slightest,but I really am looking forward to " Boardwalk.." Nothing, of course, does and ever will compare to our thing. But who knows, if even some of the brilliance can be replicated it might come a close second. It will be aired over here on the Sky One channel, a free channel under the Sky pay per view network. They bill themselves as another HBO but they don't even come close, not even making their own programmes just effectively buying up the rights to everything HBO does.
ReplyDeleteWhile I love period mob dramas, " Once upon a time..." " Goodfellas " " Godfather " etc,being set in the present makes the Sopranos real to me in a way other things just can't be. I almost think of Tony etc as real people. The issues the show raises are real anyway, very real.